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Obama Care and herd mentality

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Re: Obama Care and herd mentality

Postby Gunns » Wed Nov 09, 2016 1:56 pm

I am going to go out on a limb here.

We should be able to provide health care. To every American.

The cavalier attitude the a Doctors help can be negotiated up front and paid and not have insurance is nonsensical at best. What about that person that lives that healthy lifestyle that gets cancer?

"If you can't afford a heart bypass operation, or a liver transplant, you will have more incentive to maintain a healthy weight and lifestyle, and avoid tobacco and excessive alcohol consumption."

That has to be one of the most ignorant things I have read about health. So tell that to that to the 15,000 plus children that get cancer every year.

Most doctors visits can be eliminated with proper training and education. The majority of hospital visits are for stupid things, like a scrap, a cold or the flu. That includes re-educating the doctors, to not prescribe when not necessary. Too many dang people get prescriptions that don't need it.

Another problem with health care is that we let the gov get involved. That never helps. If anything a few common sense laws would have sufficed.
1 - Drug research dollars must be recouped by drug companies in all countries using the drug, not just the U.S.
2 - Let insurance companies compete world wide, not just regional.
3 - Don't punish pre-existing.
4 - Reduce fraud and abuse (can't go into specifics here but I have seen proof that its as high as 25% of the costs)
5 - Standardize procedures
6 - Training, every dollar spent on training saves hundreds.
7 - Self exams, standard procedures for patients when they get a cold or some such.
8 - Hygiene.

I know there are more but none of these are in practice.
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Re: Obama Care and herd mentality

Postby anita » Wed Nov 09, 2016 3:50 pm

leangenes wrote:Insurance is nothing but legalized gambling. The insurance company is the 'House', and the house always wins. People buying (or forced to buy) insurance are suckers, making a sucker's bet. No matter what kind of insurance they are paying for.

Auto insurance---- You are saying, "I'll bet this monthly premium against the value of my car that it will be wrecked this month", and the insurance company says, "We'll take that bet". You then do your best to avoid wrecking your car, trying your best to make sure you lose the bet. A sucker's bet, because you bet against yourself. And if you DO wreck your car, and 'win' the bet, the insurance company is likely to try every trick in the book to avoid paying up on their side of the bet.

Home Owner's Insurance--- Same deal, you bet your premium against the value of your home that it will be damaged or destroyed by fire, or storm, or flood, or vandals, or whatever type of coverage the salesman can sucker you, or your mortgage holder can coerce you into buying. And after you pay your premium, you go around the house checking smoke detectors, and securing storm shutters, and installing security lights, and locks, all to make sure you lose the bet you made with the insurance company. A sucker's bet.

Health Insurance--- You are betting that you will get seriously ill or injured this month. Just spend a minute thinking about it, then say it out loud to yourself-----"I bet I will get cancer this month." Or, "I bet I will have a heart attack this month." Talk about a sucker's bet.

So, for every premium you pay when nothing bad has happened, you are a loser. If your house didn't burn, or your car didn't crash, or you didn't have a stroke, then you just lost your premium. To win, your car needs to crash, or your house needs to burn, or you need to have a major medical calamity.

THAT is what's wrong with insurance.

It's just a scam to separate fearful people from their hard-earned money, by promising that if they win a sucker's bet that the cold, impersonal strangers working in the claims department of some insurance corporation will "take care of them" when they can't take care of themselves.

But, it's a free country, and if you have more money than sense, or more fear than self-reliance, then by all means, buy all the policies you want. Just don't force me to buy into a scam I don't want to participate in. Health, auto, or home-owner's, I would rather not be involved in any of them.


It's obvious you've never had your house burn down, your car totaled, or a family member with cancer. If you had, you might not think it's a scam. If you don't want to participate, don't. Self-insure. No one is stopping you, except, perhaps, your mortgage company, car loan company (if you have them) or at this point, the federal government.
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Re: Obama Care and herd mentality

Postby anita » Wed Nov 09, 2016 4:08 pm

Gunns wrote:--snip--

We should be able to provide health care. To every American.



--snip--

We provided healthcare to everyone (not just Americans) before we ever had obamacare. The problem is that it was expensive, because fools without insurance would show up at a hospital with a cold, and the hospital would treat them--at great cost.

obamacare does nothing to provide healthcare. It is insurance, and poor insurance. It covers lots of little crap (like yearly doctor visits) and limits expenses on the big things, like who you can see for cancer. It should be the exact opposite. We should have no coverage for a doctor's visit for a checkup or a doctor's visit for an ear infection, but if you get cancer, then you get much of the cost covered. That's what insurance is.

What obamacare tries to do is push the cost of caring for people onto the taxpayer, instead of making the individual responsible for their own health. You don't expect the car insurer to pay for your oil change or new tires, why would health insurance be any different?

We have a high-deductible insurance plan, and it is great. (or as great as it can be at this point). WE have a family deductible of about $6000 a year, but once we spend that, about 90% of the costs are covered. So in a normal year, we rarely get much costs covered, although we do get the "insurers" rate for charges, so maybe we have to pay $50 of the doctor's visit etc. But, when my husband got cancer, once we'd spent the $6000 deductible, almost everything was covered (except for $60 of each chemo visit, which was more than $1000 a week.) We had to pay only 10% of his hospital stays, etc.

You need insurance for the big things, not the small.

Of course, the only reason that we can still have a plan like this is because obama grandfathered small businesses, so our plan hasn't changed--much--due to obamacare. We've been very lucky.

But the government should never be involved in private businesses, and that's now the case with healthcare, and now mortgages, student loans, and on and on. Let's hope that changes.
In honor of RebNavy: "Then call us Rebels if you will, we glory in the name, for bending under unjust laws and swearing faith to an unjust cause, we count as greater shame". Richmond Daily Dispatch May 12 1862

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Re: Obama Care and herd mentality

Postby leangenes » Wed Nov 09, 2016 6:33 pm

Gunns wrote:We should be able to provide health care. To every American.


:eek: Wow, Gunns, that sounds a whole lot like you are saying we need a single payer system. I had to check to make sure I wasn't reading a post from Patriotic Stabilist. Maybe you should have voted Hillary with PS. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

If you can't afford it, why should you get it? Who should be forced to pay for it?

anita wrote:It's obvious you've never had your house burn down, your car totaled, or a family member with cancer.


Well, yes, I have been driving a looooong time, and my state requires liability insurance before a vehicle can be licensed. I have had one vehicle totaled, and numerous fender benders over the years. In each case, the other driver was at fault. In each case, I had to threaten the insurance company with legal action before they would pay up. It's a scam.

Fortunately, my home is owned free and clear. I don't participate in the homeowner's insurance scam. If my house burns down, I can move into a camper on my own land within hours, or a rental house within days. I have Amish neighbors who can have a livable house dried-in for me in less than a month, maybe as little as a week if the weather is amenable. I will not have any difficulty in paying them for their assistance.

I had an elderly relative who died of complications due to long term type I diabetes, medicare paid for dialysis for the last 2 years of his life, when he fell and broke his hip, he chose to end treatment, rather than continue as he had been. The doctors at hospital wanted to perform hip replacement surgery, even though his probable outcome was poor, his diabetes was difficult to control, and he required dialyzing 3 times per week. Hospitals/insurance companies are colluding to rob patients blind. It's a scam.

Here's the thing. YOU ARE GOING TO DIE. If you take care of yourself, eat healthy foods, watch your weight, get some regular exercise, and practice good hygiene, you could live for a long time, barring accidents, but you WILL STILL DIE, eventually. Spending hundreds of thousands, or millions of dollars to treat a life-threatening illness might buy you a few more weeks, or months, maybe even a few years of low-quality, bed ridden, or semi-invalid life, then YOU WILL DIE.

For thousands of years, most people died before they reached their fifties. Heck, for most of recorded history, living to see your fifth birthday was a miracle. Antibiotics and better nutrition helped to raise life expectancies and reduce childhood deaths for a while, but here in the US, life expectancy has actually been falling for the past few years, despite the fact that we spend more on healthcare per capita than any other nation on earth, even BEFORE obamacare.

What the heck are we paying for? A SCAM!
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Re: Obama Care and herd mentality

Postby oldasrocks » Wed Nov 09, 2016 6:52 pm

I went without health insurance from the time I was 25 to 65. Other than $1,000. bill for a lost finger I had not expense.

My brother is a different story. Last year without obozocare he went off the road, end over end several times and ended up with $100,000 hospital bill. It pretty well cleaned him out but figuring the annual premiums for 30 years he is still probably ahead.
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Re: Obama Care and herd mentality

Postby daaswampman » Wed Nov 09, 2016 7:54 pm

There are not enough resources to give everyone high level healthcare, just like there are not enough resources to give everyone a middle class lifestyle. You can cut corners and tweak the system, but in the end, you will either not have enough to go around or some will get more than others.

Healthcare for everyone is just another Socialist dream, currently playing out in Venezuela just like it will soon be playing out here. I have heard or seen all the tear jerker scenarios, but at the end of the day, you will make hard choices or you won't have any choices to make. Delivering healthcare is a dirty and often unrewarding business, nobody is going to do it for free for very long!

If you want to see another side of healthcare delivery, then read: The House of God by Samuel Shem
People rarely notice what it right in front of their eyes. The Da Vinci Code
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Re: Obama Care and herd mentality

Postby IceFire » Wed Nov 09, 2016 8:55 pm

angie_nrs wrote:As far as the gun question on doctor paperwork......you don't have to answer that question. I left it blank and they never asked me about it. If they had, I would have told them that is was none of their business......I have a feeling they get that a lot.


My Dr's office doesn't have that question on his paperwork. Questions on smoking, alcohol use, what meds you're taking, yes. Questions on guns, no.
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Re: Obama Care and herd mentality

Postby oldasrocks » Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:03 pm

My doctor has more weapons than I do.
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Re: Obama Care and herd mentality

Postby PatrioticStabilist » Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:50 pm

Why do you think your premiums are so high, we are paying for the uninsured anyway, either the ins
is getting it from us or the government which is from us too in the form of taxes.

I just had exrays, a lumbar and thoracic MRI, over 2 hours in that thing. I have a compression fracture
at L4. Getting sent to a specialist and see about repair, maybe cement pumped into the vertebre,
I would sure hate to have all this with no insurance. Yes, I'm in pain have been for some time and
wouldn't go, likely damaged it more, finally gave in. She gave me some good pain meds till I can get
to the referral doc. I am sure happy we have medicare and a supplement right now. For us the bad
part is part D, it pays nothing on drugs. But Mr Bush let the drug companies write that bill and wouldn't
allow negotiation on drug prices, why I don't know

I hate to see millions with pre existing conditions lose health care, many will suffer.
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Re: Obama Care and herd mentality

Postby theoutback » Thu Nov 10, 2016 4:42 am

IceFire wrote:
angie_nrs wrote:As far as the gun question on doctor paperwork......you don't have to answer that question. I left it blank and they never asked me about it. If they had, I would have told them that is was none of their business......I have a feeling they get that a lot.


My Dr's office doesn't have that question on his paperwork. Questions on smoking, alcohol use, what meds you're taking, yes. Questions on guns, no.


I just had a physical. They told me I had to answer several questions on a tablet. I handed it back and said ...no! My Dr. asked if I felt safe in my home? I said, "Come on Robyn" (we are friends), and just shook my head. Then she asked me if my guns were locked up, and I just told her it was none of her business! She laughed and said she just needed to make sure we were safe. I told her to get on w/ my physical.

Here was another new one. Before the DR. came in the nurse told me to read these two questions and answer them. They were along the lines of finding out how your mental state was. Do you feel depressed kind of thing. I told the nurse, huh, I don't understand this. What's this all about? She asked if she wanted her to read it to me. I said I can read jerk, I'm here for a physical not a psych evaluation! I told her I wasn't doing it, and she got mad! Poor little cupcake!

Obama care nonsense!
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Re: Obama Care and herd mentality

Postby orangetom1999 » Thu Nov 10, 2016 9:43 am

From page 1 posted by corius,

If he want to get paid he has to give a diagnosis even if the patient doesn't need one if he doesn't the insurance wont pay and getting people to pay out of pocket is a pain


This is the basic outline of what my doctor told me on Tuesday Morning. If they want to get paid by the insurance company he needs to give a diagnosis conforming to some pre given categories on a form.....smoking, drinking, overweight...etc etc etc...and one of them is guns in the home.

I was initially stunned by the category of guns in the home. Now my doctor stated this to me in a sort of sarcasm....in masking his ire at the situation.

I believe that as this kind of thing goes along ..it is going to amount to herd mentality by an administrator at the insurance company. Conform to the insurance administrator or lose your insurance coverage. In this it is going to be Herd Mentality..not liberty and freedom.

No actual laws have been broken or violated...only insurance regulations in question...not laws. But these regulations...in coercion...will have the weight of laws.


As to Obama Care...and the total mess it is becoming ....it is functioning as a tax.....

It is functioning as a runaway blank check being transferred to someone or something out there...with the very real possibility of rapid increases to infinity in the future.

This has the effect on Americans of not allowing them to enjoy or determine how the fruits of their labor are spent because they are being defaulted to overpriced Health Care.

Same effect as a tax...work you do for which you get no goods or services. It is a shakedown...a political shakedown.

Remember what I keep saying about the Milton Freedman video.


Political self interest ....overtaking people's Economic Self Interest.

What this amounts to in effect...is economic bondage...slavery.

Because a slave or bond servant does not determine their economic self interest.

Runaway taxes are bondage....slavery.

All slavery is economic in nature.


The real purpose of taxes in a system wherein the government can get as much monies as they need by printing or borrowing...it to remove competition in the marketplace from it's citizens..as all are drawing goods and services from the only economy/marketplace out there.
We are competitors,as far as the government is concerned, in the only economy out there...not citizens. This is why we must needs be herded....by so many means. Herd Mentality..

And Obama Care is one method of Herding Us...while removing monies we earn and thus limiting our ability to purchase for our families in the only economy out there. This is out economic self interest....and it has been replaced by political self interest.

Getting some people to work and pay for other people..in anything is bondage...involulntary servitude. This means some people must work and pay twice...once for themselves and their families and also for someone else.

So many of us labor and take RISKS for our monies and in our occupations..and someone in this system is going to get from us working twice for them...and they get it without RISK???? As if we succeed and therefore automatically by a measure of success...owe someone else from our production. This is bondage...not liberty and freedom.

And Obama Care is economic bondage..limiting our economic freedom and liberty to purchase for our families in the only marketplace out here while the government continues to out purchase us...in the same marketplace.
It is government largess...political self interest over the top of our individual economic self interest.


We, as a nation, give away billions and billions and billions to other nations....are some of you thinking yet???


I agree with something some of the posters had about opening up the economic marketplace to competition among the insurance companies.
The doctors and hospitals too.

Competition in the marketplace in anything eventually brings out the best product for the consumer.

Thanks,
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Re: Obama Care and herd mentality

Postby anita » Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:58 am

These questions (about mental health and guns, etc) are being asked because of government intervention into healthcare.
In honor of RebNavy: "Then call us Rebels if you will, we glory in the name, for bending under unjust laws and swearing faith to an unjust cause, we count as greater shame". Richmond Daily Dispatch May 12 1862

Semper Fi, Sic Semper Tyrannis, Remember The Alamo, and Aide'toi et Dieu T'aidera!
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Re: Obama Care and herd mentality

Postby rebnavy1862 » Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:59 am

Interesting concept, Tom, that having to work to pay for other's benefits is a form of bondage. I don't mind being taxed to support the military or pay the garbage collector. They are providing a service. I don't mind paying to aid the handicapped. I do mind paying people to not work and provide them with benefits better than what I can provide for myself. Yes, that is involuntary servitude.
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Re: Obama Care and herd mentality

Postby 5 Forks » Thu Nov 10, 2016 11:21 am

PatrioticStabilist wrote:Why do you think your premiums are so high, we are paying for the uninsured anyway, either the ins
is getting it from us or the government which is from us too in the form of taxes.

I just had exrays, a lumbar and thoracic MRI, over 2 hours in that thing. I have a compression fracture
at L4. Getting sent to a specialist and see about repair, maybe cement pumped into the vertebre,
I would sure hate to have all this with no insurance. Yes, I'm in pain have been for some time and
wouldn't go, likely damaged it more, finally gave in. She gave me some good pain meds till I can get
to the referral doc. I am sure happy we have medicare and a supplement right now. For us the bad
part is part D, it pays nothing on drugs. But Mr Bush let the drug companies write that bill and wouldn't
allow negotiation on drug prices, why I don't know

I hate to see millions with pre existing conditions lose health care, many will suffer.

Most liberals live on pain meds 24/7.
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Re: Obama Care and herd mentality

Postby 5 Forks » Thu Nov 10, 2016 11:30 am

IceFire wrote:
angie_nrs wrote:As far as the gun question on doctor paperwork......you don't have to answer that question. I left it blank and they never asked me about it. If they had, I would have told them that is was none of their business......I have a feeling they get that a lot.


My Dr's office doesn't have that question on his paperwork. Questions on smoking, alcohol use, what meds you're taking, yes. Questions on guns, no.

Ive never had a single Doctor ask me anything about firearms. And Im sure you can imagine the answer they wouild get if they did. I doubt anything more than a deep steely stare and a What did you just ask me question would shut them up. If not they should be prepared for incoming. Id start by explaining why my 1911 45 was on my hip and my Bond Derringer in 45 was in my pocket or boot. The very idea of a medical professional asking me about things within the privacy of my home infuriates me to no end. Whats next? A rundown on gold silver and currency too? The damn feds need to stay outa our private lives. Period! :cursing:
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A hyphenated American is not an American at all … The one absolutely certain way of bringing this nation to ruin, of preventing all possibility of its continuing to be a nation at all, would be to permit it to become a tangle of squabbling nationalities.
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